Help I broke my tractor in half!!!
- Thread starter rangerdave
- Start date
urednecku
Member
After following this thread from about the start, I will almost have to agree it might be our responsibility to make sure things are tight after warranty is up. Like, I guess I better crawl under my Dodge Ram and make sure the transmission is still bolted tight to the engine, the springs & shocks are still tight, the frame is still bolted tightly to the frame, etc., etc, etc.
Supertiger
New member
And you may be surprised at what you can find... Why do you think airplane are safe in comparaision with other transportation???
I like to know what you would say if the frame on your one year old dodge broke while you drove down the road. Or your brakes. Or your crankshaft.
Supertiger
New member
Of course I will claim to the manufacturer... Again, we are back to square 1. First, you will be asked to show to the service clerk your maintenance booklet and answered some questionning about the usage of your equipment. As a former VW car dealer, I went 3 times in court againts customer for claims that I tought (as well as VW) were over the LIMITED GUARANTY. We (me and VW) have won every cases. There is situation also when the reputation is more important and a setelment as we call it usualy GOOD WILL is preferable for both parties. As a certified mecanic and car dealer owner then, I can tell you that you wouldn't belived all the scatty claim you face. Unfortunately for the customer and fortunately for the manufacturer, there is a limit to the Guaranty. No one likes to pull money out of his pocket.
And when this is impossible for both parties to agree because they are sitting on ther own positions, then there is legal action...
Supertiger
And when this is impossible for both parties to agree because they are sitting on ther own positions, then there is legal action...
Supertiger
tinkertoys
Member
The point is YOU need to look at what ever it is you own and assure that it is still in one piece, regardless of age, or YOU might get a surprise.
I'm not a logger- or a farmer- or a vineyard worker. I have the machine (pasquali 462e)that rangerdave is using to fill in for his expensive broken tractor. I BOUGHT IT BROKEN IN HALF! OK mine broke the rear axle from the weight on back- but it's the same issue. The machines were never intended to have that load on them, the 6 M10 x 120 bolts that hold the axle to the center section stretched and failed. It was designed for the weight of a man- then a roto-tiller (or winch)- but never a backhoe.
The history of the "Italian" articulated tractor is an illogical extension of a 2 wheel roto-tiller into a 70HP+ beast. The center sections on these machines are not well designed for a loader or extreme loads on the rear. The new ergo (reversible) design put the loaders on the back, to reduce the distance from the pivot. Since it articulates (pivots and rotates) it is a very tricky thing to build strong and small. I use a backhoe on mine but need to tighten or replace all of the bolts in the center section every time. It leaks oil to remind me I stretched the bolts.
I will also say that a cast iron U shape is crap for the torque applied to the center section. If you climb a stump or rock and get the other wheel of that axle off the ground the stress will break bolts or pieces.
If I paid anything near $50K for a tractor I would use it hard and expect it to handle the work it was sold for. If AC or dealer sold it with the loader and log winch they are stating it is "fit for purpose" and I would sue them too.
Where is the tractor now? I would love another project!
The history of the "Italian" articulated tractor is an illogical extension of a 2 wheel roto-tiller into a 70HP+ beast. The center sections on these machines are not well designed for a loader or extreme loads on the rear. The new ergo (reversible) design put the loaders on the back, to reduce the distance from the pivot. Since it articulates (pivots and rotates) it is a very tricky thing to build strong and small. I use a backhoe on mine but need to tighten or replace all of the bolts in the center section every time. It leaks oil to remind me I stretched the bolts.
I will also say that a cast iron U shape is crap for the torque applied to the center section. If you climb a stump or rock and get the other wheel of that axle off the ground the stress will break bolts or pieces.
If I paid anything near $50K for a tractor I would use it hard and expect it to handle the work it was sold for. If AC or dealer sold it with the loader and log winch they are stating it is "fit for purpose" and I would sue them too.
Where is the tractor now? I would love another project!
OOPs-
I assumed it was articulating, after seeing pic's again it is a ridgid frame front steer. The Pasquali's are articulating- a much more fragile design normally. They may have over powered FEL to put enough stress on those bolts to shear them. If there is evidence of them being in place when failure occured.
I'm still interested in the tractor-
I assumed it was articulating, after seeing pic's again it is a ridgid frame front steer. The Pasquali's are articulating- a much more fragile design normally. They may have over powered FEL to put enough stress on those bolts to shear them. If there is evidence of them being in place when failure occured.
I'm still interested in the tractor-
rangerdave
New member
One of the reasons why I went with the rigid frame instead of the articulating was because I assumed that the frame would be significantly stronger....
I also assumed that the center section would have been a complete housing and cast thicker considering it is almost a 70 hp tractor (OK 68hp) - NOT an upside down "U" that anyone (except an engineer) in the tractor business would have come up with such a poor design.... It is weak on so many levels. Between squeezing the cast iron/steel (a big NO NO) and the differential metal fatigue resulting from the center section constantly being torqued one way and another just by driving the front wheels up and over stuff... I was HORRIFIED when I saw what the tractor was actually made of when it was taken apart.... because under all of that sheet metal and big tractor looks, there was no meat to the frame.
The bolts did not sheer. They were still in the frame. A couple of bolts fell out because the rear cast iron piece sheered at the bottom....
I also assumed that the center section would have been a complete housing and cast thicker considering it is almost a 70 hp tractor (OK 68hp) - NOT an upside down "U" that anyone (except an engineer) in the tractor business would have come up with such a poor design.... It is weak on so many levels. Between squeezing the cast iron/steel (a big NO NO) and the differential metal fatigue resulting from the center section constantly being torqued one way and another just by driving the front wheels up and over stuff... I was HORRIFIED when I saw what the tractor was actually made of when it was taken apart.... because under all of that sheet metal and big tractor looks, there was no meat to the frame.
The bolts did not sheer. They were still in the frame. A couple of bolts fell out because the rear cast iron piece sheered at the bottom....
Hi Dave-
I worked for a machine manufacturer for many years. A common philosophy to keep the cost of new designs down is to use as much as possible from the old design. IF this tractor was originally an articulating design they would change the center connection but leave front and rear housings alone. This is indicated by the two drive shafts that run front to back through the U-shaped connector? It does give you access to the U-joints etc. in the housing, but if designed as a ridgid frame they would have been oil bath and never need attention. I have never seen the machine in person- but my guess is they added the new steer axle to the front (Pasquali also offers front steer, and front steer + articultaion) but kept almost everything else from articulating design which would not see the high cycles of front to rear torque due to the rotating barrel connection. I also know that everyone makes mistakes- or assumptions? No machine is perfect just a pile of compromises to do good enough at lots of things.
Did you get it fixed yet? I"m sure it's a pretty ugly bill to add up all those castings- and think you should probably modify the design for your application to have reliability. I suggest that the U- shape be machined to have a (removable) bottom plate to complete the box. Can have holes for grease gun?
If you ever get in a bind with your 462E I might be able to help you out. Jack has taken care of me over the years, but when it gets serious with a Spanish version I have contacts in Spain.
I worked for a machine manufacturer for many years. A common philosophy to keep the cost of new designs down is to use as much as possible from the old design. IF this tractor was originally an articulating design they would change the center connection but leave front and rear housings alone. This is indicated by the two drive shafts that run front to back through the U-shaped connector? It does give you access to the U-joints etc. in the housing, but if designed as a ridgid frame they would have been oil bath and never need attention. I have never seen the machine in person- but my guess is they added the new steer axle to the front (Pasquali also offers front steer, and front steer + articultaion) but kept almost everything else from articulating design which would not see the high cycles of front to rear torque due to the rotating barrel connection. I also know that everyone makes mistakes- or assumptions? No machine is perfect just a pile of compromises to do good enough at lots of things.
Did you get it fixed yet? I"m sure it's a pretty ugly bill to add up all those castings- and think you should probably modify the design for your application to have reliability. I suggest that the U- shape be machined to have a (removable) bottom plate to complete the box. Can have holes for grease gun?
If you ever get in a bind with your 462E I might be able to help you out. Jack has taken care of me over the years, but when it gets serious with a Spanish version I have contacts in Spain.
rdbrumfield
Member
Looking at where the casting broke I would think that the bolts would have had to have been in to split that casting right where the bolts threaded through. It would have been still intact there if no bolts were in. The casings would have just separated if the bolts had been gone.
rangerdave
New member
Well, folks have been requesting an update/resolution...
I put the tractor back together this winter.
It took about a month - Some all nighters to get it done so I could work with it before my deadline to work.
Long story short. I used a piece of bridge I beam to cut out a form for a skid plate to bridge the rear and center section together. Then bridged the top and bottom together to the rear of the tractor. Then got rid of all of the plastic bumpers and made better, lower profile, diamond plate bumpers....
Welding the center section sucked - many dealers (including the headquarters) didn't really know what metal it was made out of. When we did comparison tests of known metals vs this metal, we were dumbfounded as to how it behaved!!! Most said cast steel and a few said cast iron.... We tried welding, migging, tigging and brazing with about a dozen methods on some lone pieces not attached to the center section....
Almost all of them would peal the cast off of the piece as the weld would cool, no matter how short the pass. Brazing just would not stick to the metal - simply amazing to watch - No matter how hot the metal got, the brazing material would just sit on top of the metal and roll around, bounce off or peal off... I just didn't have the money to do a metal analysis.. I got the center welded together, but will never trust it. I am only assuming the fix to be the equivalent to a spacer.
I have been using the tractor since Mid February with no problems. This includes logging with the tractor through March - Yeah, AND lifting the front end of the tractor up with the front end loader to put my tire chains on!!!
I put the tractor back together this winter.
It took about a month - Some all nighters to get it done so I could work with it before my deadline to work.
Long story short. I used a piece of bridge I beam to cut out a form for a skid plate to bridge the rear and center section together. Then bridged the top and bottom together to the rear of the tractor. Then got rid of all of the plastic bumpers and made better, lower profile, diamond plate bumpers....
Welding the center section sucked - many dealers (including the headquarters) didn't really know what metal it was made out of. When we did comparison tests of known metals vs this metal, we were dumbfounded as to how it behaved!!! Most said cast steel and a few said cast iron.... We tried welding, migging, tigging and brazing with about a dozen methods on some lone pieces not attached to the center section....
Almost all of them would peal the cast off of the piece as the weld would cool, no matter how short the pass. Brazing just would not stick to the metal - simply amazing to watch - No matter how hot the metal got, the brazing material would just sit on top of the metal and roll around, bounce off or peal off... I just didn't have the money to do a metal analysis.. I got the center welded together, but will never trust it. I am only assuming the fix to be the equivalent to a spacer.
I have been using the tractor since Mid February with no problems. This includes logging with the tractor through March - Yeah, AND lifting the front end of the tractor up with the front end loader to put my tire chains on!!!
Attachments
Nice work Dave. I'm impressed and puzzled about the material you were trying to weld. That could drive a guy bonkers. Glad you've been able to get real work done with the tractor now. And THANKS a whole lot for coming back and updating us on what you've done. 
Never say die with this guy!
He can do just about anything.
A one man "A Team"; bloody brilliant to be that capable.
Re badge it as Daves' Mean Machine. It is now to strength as it should have been for a Contractors Tractor as it was sold to all of us.
The older models like Trigone had pressed plate steel transmission casing and they still work hard. The modern Ergit with castings is a bloody financial disaster.
Go Dave go!
He can do just about anything.
A one man "A Team"; bloody brilliant to be that capable.
Re badge it as Daves' Mean Machine. It is now to strength as it should have been for a Contractors Tractor as it was sold to all of us.
The older models like Trigone had pressed plate steel transmission casing and they still work hard. The modern Ergit with castings is a bloody financial disaster.
Go Dave go!
applesmarcus
New member
Quick comment as my breakdown has just happened. Tractor 2 years old under 500 hrs TRX 10400 with cab . It has broken in half in the same place , all bolts still in their threads. This is one of two AC I own with a couple of old MFs and a Case 1340. This tractor is owner driven and used mostly carrying a 600L spray vat. The tractor still looks as new and was my pride and joy. The same tractor was down for weeks last summer with pto drive problems. It has a very well maintained modern orchard/ vineyard enviroment to work in. , never lifted anything heavier than the 3 point linkage spray vat. The dealer has it in his work shop awaiting for a response from AC Australia , I'll keep you posted, photos to come.
rangerdave
New member
Simply amazing.... Yours is the 4th I've heard of... Good luck with the company.... I'm sorry for your loss, because that was the model I wanted to trade my TRX in for after I paid it off....
applesmarcus
New member
My older AC is a TF8400 with a low cab. This I purchased as a used unit 4 years ago and has had a few normal wear and tear repairs, exept when it blew apart the pto clutch basket, $6000 later with a new and improved basket that had a metal band welded around the fingers that house the clutch plates. I'm lucky that I have this one going nicely to back up the 10400 for the next weeks/months?? last season the TRX 10400 had pto drive problems, digital dash failure, all were covered foc by AC Aust. This year I have coolant dripping from the ceiling and the electronic pto switch failing. Minor things but not what you would expect from a $65,000 plus machine. One reason for purchasing the Carraro was the simplicity of the machine. Only 2 weeks ago I had been browsing catalogs for a new cabless tractor to replace the old faithfull Case 1430. I haven't canned the idea of another TRX , but we shall see what support is forthcoming from AC Australia. My neighbor has 2 x TF8400, and 1 TRX, I know they get worked much harder than mine and they have had few probs.
rangerdave
New member
I have owned 3 Pasquali tractors in the past. Not a single problem other than wearing through a clutch or brake cable now and then.... I should have stayed with a new one for about 2/3's of the price!
I have just noticed that the two pins that go from the steering rams to the front steering knuckles have simultaneously loosened/worn.....
I have just noticed that the two pins that go from the steering rams to the front steering knuckles have simultaneously loosened/worn.....
Diesel Dan
New member
There is an alternative to the Antonio Carraro here in Australia and it wont have the breaking problems and at the end of the day it could be cheaper for a similar machine it is made by the same company that makes the Pasquali.