Help I broke my tractor in half!!!
- Thread starter rangerdave
- Start date
Then, the BRAND is no good !!Supertiger
New member
I own a Supertiger 1993 (articulated 64hp) and never experience a failure but the hydraulic oil pump once... I use the tractor mainly for logging and snow removal and I am more than please with it. Once a year I check all the bolts and nuts as prescribed in the maintenance manuel. Everytime, I find some that need to be retighten. I'm not suggesting that the guy from AC is right but most of us do not perform a fraction of the maintenace prescribed by the manufacturer. For example, who takes the starter apart after 2000 hrs of operation... if you do so, chances that you will have a starter failure are allmost inexistant. I can go on and on... but life is life.
I wish Rangerdave good luck. I recommand you strongly to go directly to AC S.p.a. cutomer relation. Maybe they will see it differently as their dealer.
I wish Rangerdave good luck. I recommand you strongly to go directly to AC S.p.a. cutomer relation. Maybe they will see it differently as their dealer.
We really enjoy pics of all the different machinery.
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Firstly in the spirit of camaraderie of this forum I would sincerely like to formally apologize to orchardpete.
Interesting that I though you was from there cause you just across the boarder? (not mexico way..) They grate cheese and you melt it in hug blocks in front of the hearth. Sorry Bud!
But you did let the side down some what. Imagine stepping into a saloon a and a guy is moaning about the jail guard at home and you say shes ok; he will probably head butt you some..
Blokes with major A.Carraro problems costing them and there wives thousands and now thousands to repair.... do react unfairly. Firstly they too love their choose of tractor and rangerdave has had many of the same design with no problems. The new top range design A. Carraro TRX is letting folks down badly. So you from Switzerland should have supported the http://www.aebi.com/en/agriculture/areas-of-use/terratrac/ the very best technology can build.. Best mowers etc. with a loader work; pictured! But you chose Carraro because it is excellent but cheaper??? But people buy a
A. Carraro spa machines for a multiple uses. The Swiss would make sure there brand is protected so why has Carraro used the same castings for the smaller machines and the larger work..horses (no pun intended) and changed from pressed steel housings for the big machines.. that now snap?
I have checked sites all over the world and sometimes things go wrong: like the Fendt 700 owner in the U.K. that has had the gear box changed by the factory 4 times!!!! A friday or monday machine fixed by the factory. That is what it is about.
Orchardpete I like the cheese slightly crispy with that sweet apple liqueur.
Cheers bud.
Jake W
Member
As someone that has been in business for 23 years I would suggest that the best approach would be for the company to do the honorable thing and send you the parts to fix the tractor, they should also send out a factory tech to do the work.
It would also be worth its weight in gold in terms of PR to send you a gift certificate for two to the best restaurant in town.
It would also be worth its weight in gold in terms of PR to send you a gift certificate for two to the best restaurant in town.
I think we must point out that we have only heard the OP's side of the story, I'm not implying that the OIp is bending the truth, but its always worth hearing the other side before you judge.
I must say, before now I've never heard anything bad about AC. Actually, its all been praise.
Honestly, from the pictures I would also be lead to believe, like your dealer, that these bolts were loose or missing when it broke.
They would have to have been already loose to have rattled out in the trip to the dealer.
Whether or not its easy to get to the bolts or not its down to the owner to ensure the bolts are tight. You either do it yourself, or pay the dealer to do it. Some machines specify in the warranty that you have to get the tractor serviced by the dealer every year to get the next years warranty. Therefore, its down to the dealer to make sure all is good on it.
Maybe AC could have handled it better, but it is pretty clearcut. Bolts were loose causing the failure, its out of warranty, no obligation for AC to fix it for you. I'll bet checking bolts are tight is part of the maintained schedule.
BTW, I have absolutely nothing to do with AC. I have looked over them and liked what I saw, but thats about the sum of my contact with them.
I must say, before now I've never heard anything bad about AC. Actually, its all been praise.
If this is the case then it is not a problem with the machine and would not be covered under the warranty. It is not a defect.
Honestly, from the pictures I would also be lead to believe, like your dealer, that these bolts were loose or missing when it broke.
They would have to have been already loose to have rattled out in the trip to the dealer.
Whether or not its easy to get to the bolts or not its down to the owner to ensure the bolts are tight. You either do it yourself, or pay the dealer to do it. Some machines specify in the warranty that you have to get the tractor serviced by the dealer every year to get the next years warranty. Therefore, its down to the dealer to make sure all is good on it.
Maybe AC could have handled it better, but it is pretty clearcut. Bolts were loose causing the failure, its out of warranty, no obligation for AC to fix it for you. I'll bet checking bolts are tight is part of the maintained schedule.
BTW, I have absolutely nothing to do with AC. I have looked over them and liked what I saw, but thats about the sum of my contact with them.
rangerdave
New member
Well, what he quoted is true... but....
1. Look at the pictures and tell me how the three bolts could have stayed in with the rear cast housing and center casting completely blown apart... and then driving 4+ hours to the dealer on the back of a flatbed tow truck on spring time pot hole back roads in Maine....
2. The dealer did not find evidence of either a lock washer or lock tight on any of the threads of the bolts that were left holding the remainder of the broken housing (We can only see some brown/tan putty looking stuff around the bolt hole entrance...) All the threads are clean in the holes and on the bolts.
3. Like the bolts on the engine, frame and brakes of your car, stuff properly engineered shouldn't start unbolting and breaking apart under normal conditions... Remember all of the vehicle roll overs due to bad tires... Toyota offered generous replacement value for ALL of their trucks produced from 95-99 or so because the frames were rusting in HALF.... My 93 Toyota just received a free warranty issue repair for the front end due to "critical steering failures due to metal fatigue on critical linkages..."
The point is (and I may be wrong) but the tire company didn't own up to the tire problem at first, but Toyota seems to instantly pre-empt the warranty issues that present them selves.... Maybe that's why they don't need a bail out like the "Big - 3" LOL
1. Look at the pictures and tell me how the three bolts could have stayed in with the rear cast housing and center casting completely blown apart... and then driving 4+ hours to the dealer on the back of a flatbed tow truck on spring time pot hole back roads in Maine....
2. The dealer did not find evidence of either a lock washer or lock tight on any of the threads of the bolts that were left holding the remainder of the broken housing (We can only see some brown/tan putty looking stuff around the bolt hole entrance...) All the threads are clean in the holes and on the bolts.
3. Like the bolts on the engine, frame and brakes of your car, stuff properly engineered shouldn't start unbolting and breaking apart under normal conditions... Remember all of the vehicle roll overs due to bad tires... Toyota offered generous replacement value for ALL of their trucks produced from 95-99 or so because the frames were rusting in HALF.... My 93 Toyota just received a free warranty issue repair for the front end due to "critical steering failures due to metal fatigue on critical linkages..."
The point is (and I may be wrong) but the tire company didn't own up to the tire problem at first, but Toyota seems to instantly pre-empt the warranty issues that present them selves.... Maybe that's why they don't need a bail out like the "Big - 3" LOL
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rangerdave
New member
Oh yes... I am not familiar with the therm "OP".... I have also seen "IMHO" somewhere too... Can anyone explain???
On a side note... If what I have heard is true, a few people have already had their tractors break in half and Antonio Carraro is unveiling their 3rd version of a stronger tractor housing center section in Europe this coming year... Which would suggest that they are aware of some sort of center housing section issue... why change the design if the first one or two were adequate???
I don't blame some folks for playing devil's advocate... If they have never had a problem, good for them. They were blessed with a good machine and quality service... I've witnessed how some people beat and neglect their machines and then blame the machine!!!
I'm more of an optimistic pessimist... I expect the worst and am pleasantly surprised when good things happen
On a side note... If what I have heard is true, a few people have already had their tractors break in half and Antonio Carraro is unveiling their 3rd version of a stronger tractor housing center section in Europe this coming year... Which would suggest that they are aware of some sort of center housing section issue... why change the design if the first one or two were adequate???
I don't blame some folks for playing devil's advocate... If they have never had a problem, good for them. They were blessed with a good machine and quality service... I've witnessed how some people beat and neglect their machines and then blame the machine!!!
I'm more of an optimistic pessimist... I expect the worst and am pleasantly surprised when good things happen
OP = Original Poster (ie: you in this thread....OP is the person who started a thread)
IMHO = In My Humble Opinion
On a side note... If what I have heard is true, a few people have already had their tractors break in half and Antonio Carraro is unveiling their 3rd version of a stronger tractor housing center section in Europe this coming year... Which would suggest that they are aware of some sort of center housing section issue... why change the design if the first one or two were adequate???
I don't blame some folks for playing devil's advocate... If they have never had a problem, good for them. They were blessed with a good machine and quality service... I've witnessed how some people beat and neglect their machines and then blame the machine!!!
I'm more of an optimistic pessimist... I expect the worst and am pleasantly surprised when good things happen
I had not heard of Antonio Carraro until you posted this thread. And you've owned other tractors made by Antonio Carraro and had no issues with them, or you would not have bought this one.
I also understand the manufacturers being suspicious that we as users abuse the machines. Manufacturers think we are all idiots. We know the manufacturers try to get out of warranty issues with any palitable excuse they can cough up. So it turns into a battle. All you can do is document as best you can, take pictures from all angles and keep your fingers crossed that you are dealing with a reputable dealer and company.
Please keep us posted on this Dave as you work your way through it.
IMHO the image DSC02595.jpg shows small gaseous inclusions (air pockets!!). This casting material is not homogenous.
Various metallurgical techniques have been used since the iron age (yes this stuff is not that high tech and has a long history). The 19th Cen. Industrial Revolution perfected methodologies.
1. For instance a cast metal cooled down is a 'Cast' product. Now a days long term cooling down in special ovens is done to make the product less brittle. An older method a casting is cooled for weeks in a closed box with lime powder; to slow the cooling and exclude air and moisture = oxidants).
Cast iron is a relatively simple receipt.
Sometimes with boiler castings minute graphite spheres are added for contraction-expansion-strength reasons ( near impossible to weld).
2. A cast metal when beaten by hammer or large industrial pounding machines is called "Forged". Forging makes the metal crystals flatter and closer; hence a higher strength is achieved.
3. Metal like steel with different mineral receipts have different properties, now a days steel is poured and rolled/pressed into plate. Hence Mild Steel or Bisalloy or other types.
Rangerdaves had Pasquali tractors with pressed steel plate transmission housings = no problems for the same job done!!!!!
Every other A. Carraro owner happy mowing, mulching or fork lifting. But the powerful Ergit series TRX with cast iron transmission casings.....??
DOC you state :"manufacturers being suspicious that we as users abuse the machines. Manufacturers think we are all idiots." I have downloaded from Y-tube JCB backhoes dancing, LAMBORGHINI tractors driven by stuntmen on two wheels... These are feats we property owners do not do with hard earned or borrowed money. The factories like JCB do these feats to show A: hydraulic pumps, cylinders and spool valves can take the impossible B: the RIGID Frame can cope.. Hence tough farm or contractor work no problem! Tractor brands showing the crazy stunts assure the strength of the design.
The multitude of mechanics, specialist mechanics, salespersons and engineers adding up to hundreds of years of experience: come up with 10 machine housings broken between them!!
Scientific Metallurgical Reports from WWII : castings were known to be weaker when the Sun and Moon crossed (called a Node in Astronomy)... (strange but true.. Dr. Spoke). Sun spot affect electromagnetic waves, weather etc.
Not once in all the different website threads has anyone queried cast iron being used in extreme cold weather. Is this the correct material to be 'ice cold' then slowly warm up to engine temperature and then get a normal jolt during operation or driving down a bumpy road.
Doc. The manufacturers have experts working for them. In depth knowledge these days could be thin on the ground because the younger generation has more than two carreer fields in a lifetime. Where are they that did the job for 38 years? Each of the websites members have different badges in life: accountant, dentist, ranger, farmer each an expert in their field. My badge is Material Science Conservation. I am used as an expert witness in court on material science issues. I work with labs world wide. It is time for manufacturers to have respect for those that spend their money on their product. And get together to sort things out, go forward. To fix a few machines is a financial drop in the ocean for them and an eternal faith in the brand.
Various metallurgical techniques have been used since the iron age (yes this stuff is not that high tech and has a long history). The 19th Cen. Industrial Revolution perfected methodologies.
1. For instance a cast metal cooled down is a 'Cast' product. Now a days long term cooling down in special ovens is done to make the product less brittle. An older method a casting is cooled for weeks in a closed box with lime powder; to slow the cooling and exclude air and moisture = oxidants).
Cast iron is a relatively simple receipt.
Sometimes with boiler castings minute graphite spheres are added for contraction-expansion-strength reasons ( near impossible to weld).
2. A cast metal when beaten by hammer or large industrial pounding machines is called "Forged". Forging makes the metal crystals flatter and closer; hence a higher strength is achieved.
3. Metal like steel with different mineral receipts have different properties, now a days steel is poured and rolled/pressed into plate. Hence Mild Steel or Bisalloy or other types.
Rangerdaves had Pasquali tractors with pressed steel plate transmission housings = no problems for the same job done!!!!!
Every other A. Carraro owner happy mowing, mulching or fork lifting. But the powerful Ergit series TRX with cast iron transmission casings.....??
DOC you state :"manufacturers being suspicious that we as users abuse the machines. Manufacturers think we are all idiots." I have downloaded from Y-tube JCB backhoes dancing, LAMBORGHINI tractors driven by stuntmen on two wheels... These are feats we property owners do not do with hard earned or borrowed money. The factories like JCB do these feats to show A: hydraulic pumps, cylinders and spool valves can take the impossible B: the RIGID Frame can cope.. Hence tough farm or contractor work no problem! Tractor brands showing the crazy stunts assure the strength of the design.
The multitude of mechanics, specialist mechanics, salespersons and engineers adding up to hundreds of years of experience: come up with 10 machine housings broken between them!!
Scientific Metallurgical Reports from WWII : castings were known to be weaker when the Sun and Moon crossed (called a Node in Astronomy)... (strange but true.. Dr. Spoke). Sun spot affect electromagnetic waves, weather etc.
Not once in all the different website threads has anyone queried cast iron being used in extreme cold weather. Is this the correct material to be 'ice cold' then slowly warm up to engine temperature and then get a normal jolt during operation or driving down a bumpy road.
Doc. The manufacturers have experts working for them. In depth knowledge these days could be thin on the ground because the younger generation has more than two carreer fields in a lifetime. Where are they that did the job for 38 years? Each of the websites members have different badges in life: accountant, dentist, ranger, farmer each an expert in their field. My badge is Material Science Conservation. I am used as an expert witness in court on material science issues. I work with labs world wide. It is time for manufacturers to have respect for those that spend their money on their product. And get together to sort things out, go forward. To fix a few machines is a financial drop in the ocean for them and an eternal faith in the brand.
OrchardPete
New member
I totally agree with Mith! I take my tractor to my dealer according to the maintenance schedule. Actually I have to because otherwise I risk to lose warranty coverage according to my dealer! But also look closely at the maintenance schedule as it does demand quite a number of regular checks, like on any type of equipment. My brother, who studied engineering is pretty good at this though. I just bought my third AC tractor this week and they even include a 4 year/4000hr warranty now.
I don't want to underestimate coadan's expertise, which certainly sounds to be on a very high level. I'm not an engineer but just trying to think logic. I called my good friend in Switzerland who is a AC dealer in Central Switzerland since 20 some years and sold in the meantime 1600 AC tractors. I'm operating mine in cold temperatures too, but those guys back in Switzerland do a bunch of snow removal with these machines!
Therefore I believe something else must had gone wrong other than a straight material failure. That's why I think Mith's statement seems to be more of what might have happened.
I was curious about rangerdave's comment about a new housing coming out and asked my friend who's got excellent contact with the factory and he told me that the new machines coming out in the fall 2009 will have some updates but more in the lines of PTO and then a new design with new features. The PTO they are updating because with the new Series they want to go up to 120HP.
Again, that is the information I've got from him and I thought I'll share with you guys as I found it interesting since it's not yet officially published here in the US yet!
I told him about this case and he said it's definitely very unusual and it does not sound to him like a material and design problem. Her suggested that rangerdave gets in contact with his dealer who he bought the machine from who should be able to help him with a special price on parts or something else just because of good customer relation.
Good luck!
I don't want to underestimate coadan's expertise, which certainly sounds to be on a very high level. I'm not an engineer but just trying to think logic. I called my good friend in Switzerland who is a AC dealer in Central Switzerland since 20 some years and sold in the meantime 1600 AC tractors. I'm operating mine in cold temperatures too, but those guys back in Switzerland do a bunch of snow removal with these machines!
Therefore I believe something else must had gone wrong other than a straight material failure. That's why I think Mith's statement seems to be more of what might have happened.
I was curious about rangerdave's comment about a new housing coming out and asked my friend who's got excellent contact with the factory and he told me that the new machines coming out in the fall 2009 will have some updates but more in the lines of PTO and then a new design with new features. The PTO they are updating because with the new Series they want to go up to 120HP.
Again, that is the information I've got from him and I thought I'll share with you guys as I found it interesting since it's not yet officially published here in the US yet!
I told him about this case and he said it's definitely very unusual and it does not sound to him like a material and design problem. Her suggested that rangerdave gets in contact with his dealer who he bought the machine from who should be able to help him with a special price on parts or something else just because of good customer relation.
Good luck!
PaulChristenson
Member
Could you point out to us, who live in the East...Where the closest dealer is to an owner in MAINE???
From earlier posts in this thread I think we can take that as fact, even the OP seemed to agree that they had.
I still think Quincy gave the best advice earlier in the thread, trying to damage the manufacturers reputation by posting a one sided story on all the forums you can find isn't going to help the case IMO. Sorry to be so blunt about it.
tinkertoys
Member
I worked heavy equipment for several years both operater and service/mechanic. The of rule of thumb was walk around and look, if it was a large item climb on and look around then check the oils etc. I look over my tractors before operation even now. It helps keep the problems down .
I don't think you are being blunt. That's just your opinion
But, his one sided story my be the truth just as it happened. I can understand his position. I had a problem with an auto. that the dealer /factory didn't want to repair because of my story of what happened. But, it was the truth. By putting signs on my auto ( truck) It made the dealer / factory take notice & make those repairs that , at 1 st. said they wouldn't repair because they had never seen that type of failure before even though the truck was still under full factory warranty
Orchardpete all those with similar snapped cast iron transmission casings THANK you very much.
You stated:"I called my good friend in Switzerland who is a AC dealer in Central Switzerland since 20 some years and sold in the meantime 1600 AC tractors."
My question is how many with FEL (on front or rear)?
“He said it's definitely very unusual and it does not sound to him like a material and design problem”. He is a salesman that sells them without FEL ;also you stated:”but I also understand (from your Swiss contact) that it's not a loader tractor because of the oscillation,”
If your Swiss dealer knows that the A.C tractors are not ‘loader tractors’ why are they sold worldwide with a loader =FEL?
To Mith we say: the manufacturer is getting their importers to blame operator, and or loader or previous spares placed by appointed dealer!! We have everything done by the appointed dealers mechanic; except oil + fuel filter and the daily or weekly items. And a silly 10% discount on a massive repair bill still does not give the answers.
My very First casing to snap occurred when logs were dragged across fields by the Front Hook... I was told that the TRX front hook is to drag or tow the machine not to drag logs. The snapping of the transmission casing occurred on the way back from the drop off point at 8.1km an hour (the most comfortable speed back across the field with the FEL on the rear). A square depression in the field of about 300 mm deep (dozer soil scrape for engineers to see soil type for building concrete slab types) was what I drove into (not seeing it in the short grass).
SO I may and can pull the tractor (3 ton with FEL) out of a mud hole etc by the front hook but not drag an approximate 400-800 kg log across the field?? My engineers say this a laughable...
One other reply was that the Implement (FEL) on the TRX had caused extra load shock to the tractor when driving into the depression.
My various engineers say that it should not snap casings (but these are cast iron) (not pressed plate like previous models) and that a Rigid frame tractor would take all of that..
There are more holes in the A.C. dealers debate on this issue, than holes in Swiss cheese orchardpete.
You stated:"I called my good friend in Switzerland who is a AC dealer in Central Switzerland since 20 some years and sold in the meantime 1600 AC tractors."
My question is how many with FEL (on front or rear)?
“He said it's definitely very unusual and it does not sound to him like a material and design problem”. He is a salesman that sells them without FEL ;also you stated:”but I also understand (from your Swiss contact) that it's not a loader tractor because of the oscillation,”
If your Swiss dealer knows that the A.C tractors are not ‘loader tractors’ why are they sold worldwide with a loader =FEL?
To Mith we say: the manufacturer is getting their importers to blame operator, and or loader or previous spares placed by appointed dealer!! We have everything done by the appointed dealers mechanic; except oil + fuel filter and the daily or weekly items. And a silly 10% discount on a massive repair bill still does not give the answers.
My very First casing to snap occurred when logs were dragged across fields by the Front Hook... I was told that the TRX front hook is to drag or tow the machine not to drag logs. The snapping of the transmission casing occurred on the way back from the drop off point at 8.1km an hour (the most comfortable speed back across the field with the FEL on the rear). A square depression in the field of about 300 mm deep (dozer soil scrape for engineers to see soil type for building concrete slab types) was what I drove into (not seeing it in the short grass).
SO I may and can pull the tractor (3 ton with FEL) out of a mud hole etc by the front hook but not drag an approximate 400-800 kg log across the field?? My engineers say this a laughable...
One other reply was that the Implement (FEL) on the TRX had caused extra load shock to the tractor when driving into the depression.
My various engineers say that it should not snap casings (but these are cast iron) (not pressed plate like previous models) and that a Rigid frame tractor would take all of that..
There are more holes in the A.C. dealers debate on this issue, than holes in Swiss cheese orchardpete.