injection pump timing

aurthuritis

Well-known member
Site Supporter
with all of the low power threads of late has made me remember some discussion i found while searching the forum. according to Adams Repair Quote>>>> "I have rebuilt many many D902 engines for RTV's.. All of these suggestions are great.
Always best to go back to the basics. AIR Fuel Compression. I test run every engine, so I have found all kinds of little issues with these little buggers. AIR= remove tube from intake, then like suggested pull valve cover see if valves are moving when turned over. Fuel sucking air in fuel has been a biggie for me it seems like you are getting enough fuel to bleeder but little bits of air keep it from getting enough fuel rail pressure in the injector pumps. even little air bubbles compress not creating enough breaking pressure to lift the pintle of the injector. Lift pump pressure is also another good check. have run into that many times. So now Still on the fuel part...If everything is great to this point, without a injector plunger pressure check gauge, you can take all injector lines off make sure you have fuel to the bleed screw after having messed with it. pull the glow pulgs so it will turn over freely and hit the starter, the fuel shots coming out of the injector pump should shoot over 2-3 ft high or higher or in your eye..then roll it over by hand slowly and watch the fuel come up and crown on top of each fitting. Dab wipe or gently blow the fuel off of the fittings until the little V shaped seating area is empty then roll it over by hand again they should all produce approx the same amount with one revolution. Now compression Book says 456-512 but they will still start at 250 psi with some effort. Timing of the injector pump can't change dramatically like all the sudden unless some thing broke. i.e injecting pump gear or cam or injc pump plungers or rollers. But every one I have rebuilt have to be re timed due to small amounts of wear on all of the above items. Checking and adjusting the timing every 100 hrs will keep you in good trim. I have had a rebuild with the timing off about 8 deg's and low compression due to the rings had not seated, start real hard, but it smoked popped and farted around before I could get it to start. But it started. Checking timing is easy on the bench but in the Machine it is awkward but do able. You have already had the injection pump out so you could easily change the timing. If it comes to that. When you turn the eng over by hand checking fuel delivery at the injc fittings when the fuel just starts to move on plunger #1 stop and pull the rubber plug to see the timing marks on the flywheel. I do it 8 or 9 times, turn the engine real slow and watch really close for the slightest movement. dab the fuel out of #1 until you can see it down in the straight part of the fitting seat but no fuel is in the V part. That makes it easier to see when the fuel starts to move. Remove shims from under injection pump to advance it. which is almost always what you need to do to compensate for normal wear. 17 deg's to 18.5 degs says in book. 19 deg's best power but starts a little harder. Geezz I forgot fuel start spring.. what was I thinking. Had that problem once tooo. Under the cover that has the fuel and stop levers on it is a tiny spring that pulls the rack to the start position. But you can tell if it might be this if you hold it wide open while trying to start it. The timing marks are hard to see, the pointer is just a center punch mark on the backing plate and the flywheel marks are faint, so find them and use metal marker or chalk on them. And by the way the shims under the injection pump look like just one or maybe 2 shims but look real close I always find at least 3 shims stuck together. Book says a .05 mm shim changes the timing about 5 deg's. I always end up pulling more than that to change 5 deg's. Good golly I wrote a book.."
 

aurthuritis

Well-known member
Site Supporter
it seems the injection timing can be off quite a bit from the factory. I would suggest your technician familiarize himself or herself with the procedure to check injection timing. on these small diesels it helps if everything is set right from the start. I hope this helps
 

aurthuritis

Well-known member
Site Supporter
I am sorry for the format on the information"one big sentence" but i copied and pasted from an archived thread from Adams Repair and didn't want to edit someone else thread.Remember the info is from Adams Repair!! I just found it in the archives.
 

Fitch

Active member
I've owned a several Diesels over the last 30 years including six Diesel Pickups. I own five Diesel engines right now (1998 John Deere 770, 2005 LS160 Skid Steer, 2004 RTV 900W, 2003 ZD21, 1999 Dodge 3500). None of them have had an injection pump timing problem. The RTV has 2,058 hours on it and runs like new. The mower has a little more than half that and runs great. The mower has seen a lot more severe service, it runs wide open all the time.

If the engine is running normally, leave it alone. I would be astonished if it's necessary, or productive in any way, to fuss with injection pump timing every hundred hours. I've never fussed with it at all. Ever. I think amateurs messing with it is a great way to screw things up. My RTV has over 2,000 hours and the paint on the injection pipes and injection pump is factory perfect (it has some dust and dirt on it, but they have never had a wrench on them).

Do the boring routine/scheduled maintenance, the checks in the manual, and aspire to live long enough to wear the thing out. If something breaks, fix it. If it ain't broke, leave it the heck alone.

Fitch
 

aurthuritis

Well-known member
Site Supporter
I believe Fitch is correct mostly in his post. and the post from Adams Service is hard to read and understand. but it has been his experience as a Kubota RTV service technician that some of these engines injection timing is off from the factory. it is my suggestion that if your RTV is running as expected to leave the timing alone,but if you are experiencing problems that adjustments to the linkages and oil and filters don't fix ,it might be prudent to have your dealer investigate the timing.
 

Fitch

Active member
Out of curiosity, I made an effort to improve the readability and make sense out of the quoted words from Adams Service. I edited it to break it into paragraphs, add punctuation, replace abbreviations with whole words, and fix the wording in places. Read it at your own risk.

That said, I've attached no indispensable ego to this. If I goofed someplace, please point it out so I can fix it. I don't want to leave something with errors for others to use.

----------------------------------------------

With all of the low power threads of late has made me remember some discussion I found while searching the forum. According to Adams Repair Quote:

-------------------

"I have rebuilt many many D902 engines for RTV's. All of these suggestions are great.

Always best to go back to the basics. AIR Fuel Compression. I test run every engine, so I have found all kinds of little issues with these little buggers.

AIR= remove tube from intake, then like suggested pull valve cover see if valves are moving when turned over.

Fuel: Sucking air in fuel has been a biggie for me it seems like you are getting enough fuel to bleeder but little bubbles of air keep it from getting enough fuel rail pressure in the injector pumps. Even little air bubbles compress not creating enough breaking pressure to lift the pintle of the injector. Lift pump pressure is also another good check. Have run into that many times.

Still on the fuel part...If everything is great to this point, without a injector plunger pressure check gauge, you can take all injector lines off make sure you have fuel to the bleed screw after having messed with it.

Pull the glow plugs so it will turn over freely and hit the starter, the fuel shots coming out of the injector pump should shoot over 2-3 ft. high or higher or in your eye. Then roll it over by hand slowly and watch the fuel come up and crown on top of each fitting. Dab wipe or gently blow the fuel off of the fittings until the little V shaped seating area is empty then roll it over by hand again they should all produce approximately the same amount with one revolution.

Now compression: Book says 456-512 but they will still start at 250 psi with some effort.

Back to the injection pump: Timing of the injector pump can't change dramatically, like all the sudden, unless something broke. I.e. injection pump gear or cam or injection pump plungers or rollers. But everyone I have rebuilt have to be retimed due to small amounts of wear on all of the above items. Checking and adjusting the timing every 100 hrs. will keep you in good trim. (Edited by Fitch to add, I think checking and adjusting every hundred hours with the engine running right is ill advised. The increased chance of contamination induced failures isn't worth the essentially immeasurable performance improvement. The way the system is designed, timing won't change with in the error limits of the process in a hundred hours.)

I have had a rebuild with the timing off about 8 degrees and low compression due to the rings had not seated, start real hard, but it smoked popped and farted around before I could get it to start. But it started. Checking timing is easy on the bench. In the Machine it is awkward but do able. If you are doing a rebuild you have already had the injection pump out so you could easily change the timing.

If it comes to that, turn the engine over by hand and check fuel delivery at the injection pump fittings. When the fuel just starts to move on plunger #1, stop and pull the rubber plug to see the timing marks on the flywheel. Make a note of where it is. (Perhaps a cell phone camera picture?) I do it 8 or 9 times. Turn the engine real slow and watch really close for the slightest movement. Carefully dab the fuel out of #1 until you can see it down in the straight part of the fitting seat but no fuel is in the V part. That makes it easier to see when the fuel starts to move.

Remove shims from under injection pump to advance the timing which is almost always what you need to do to compensate for normal wear. The timing is supposed to be 17 deg's to 18.5 degs says in book. 19 deg's best power but starts a little harder. [In my book it says 17 degrees to 19 degrees before top dead center. Given all the sources of error in this process (see comments on timing marks below), I'd try for mid-range were it me.]

Geezz I forgot fuel start spring.. what was I thinking. Had that problem once too. Under the cover that has the fuel and stop levers on it is a tiny spring that pulls the rack to the start position. But you can tell if it might be this if you hold it wide open while trying to start it.

Back to injection timing: The timing marks are hard to see, the pointer is just a center punch mark on the backing plate and the flywheel marks are faint, so find them and use metal marker or chalk on them. And by the way the shims under the injection pump look like just one or maybe 2 shims but look real close I always find at least 3 shims stuck together. Book says a .05 mm shim changes the timing about .5 deg. I always end up pulling more than that to change .5 deg."

-------------------

End of quote.

The Kubota shims are confusing and some care is needed to avoid surprises:

0.20mm = 2 hole shim total thickness
0.25mm = 1 hole shim total thickness
0.30mm = 0 hole shim total thickness

Notice that the only way to get small changes is to change between shim thicknesses. Adding or subtracting a whole shim makes a big change in timing.

To clarify what might be confusing, the 0.05mm shim adjustment which changes timing by a half a degree, as discussed in the service manual, is the difference in thickness between two adjacent shims. In other words, Remove a one hole shim which is 0.25mm thick and replace it with a two hole shim which is 0.20 mm thick to reduce the thickness by 0.05mm and advance the timing by 0.5 degree. Completely removing a one hole shim would advance the timing by 2.5 degrees. Completely removing a 0 hole shim would advance timing by 3 degrees.

In the case he cited where the timing was off eight degrees, which is way off, it's like a pair of 2 hole shims were left out, or two too many 2 hole shims were installed (he didn't say which way it was off, but I'd think retarded - late - because an additional 8 degrees of advance might blow holes in the pistons).

Finally, the shims are between the fuel pump mounting flange and the engine. To check the timing, the fuel pump mounting nuts and bolts should be properly torqued. If they aren't, when they are tightened, the timing will change.

Fitch
 

shinnery

Active member
Fitch, Thanks for your editing work, the paragraph is easier to read. Understand? (LOL) One thing up on the second line I believe the AIR, Fuel, Compression needs some kind of punctuation, either commas or hyphens to show he is talking about 3 things, maybe this is just me.
Bryce
 

Fitch

Active member
Fitch, Thanks for your editing work, the paragraph is easier to read. Understand? (LOL) One thing up on the second line I believe the AIR, Fuel, Compression needs some kind of punctuation, either commas or hyphens to show he is talking about 3 things, maybe this is just me.
Bryce

You're right, it should have a colon, not a period, and commas between them, but I am no longer allowed to edit it. Darn it.

It should read, "Always best to go back to the basics: AIR, Fuel, Compression."

Thanks
Fitch
 

D&D Farm

Gold Site Supporter
Gold Site Supporter
GREAT WORK..........now maybe post a copy up there in the thread(S) up there at the top of Stuff that needs to be saved and handy..............God bless.....Dennis
 
Top